First Test, Feedback/Wishes

[NewTester]

Hi,

just tested the programm and want to give a short feedback.

Positive:
a) Very easy to use and very good instructions for new users and I like the user-interface too (very easy/comfortable to handle...)
b) I like, that it was possible to test it fast (without enter 1000 datas like realname, adress...and that its possible to write that easy in the forum too...)

Future wishes:
c) I would like to have an optional function for, if I go allin (or if I make a pre-action fold), that the table move instandly back to the main-stacked-slot. Advantage: The slot is faster free again for a fresh table, the acutally showed tables is reduced and so the view is more clearly. If I see instead the showdown its difficult not to take a look to it and if I play many tables that costs attention, what I want to avoid (and if I play something like hypers (masstabling) and I saw the 10th time in a row a unlucky lose on the river, then there is a tilt-danger too^^).

d) I dont like to see the main-stacked-slot (need space and it cost some attention too...sometimes u see this table and holecards already with your half eye (and it starts already to go in your brain and be a part of your mind...), but u play 1-2 other slots first, because hand is more important or clearer to play (or timebank is shorter...), and then this table from the main-stacked-slot move to the new free slot. And this is confusing my mind a little bit.

If I see a table on a specific position and my mind starts (consciously or unconsciously) thinking about it, then I dont like to find (or search) the same table on a diffrent position later. So I would like to have an optional function "dont move a table which already exists longer then x seconds" and a function "hide main-stacked-slot if no action is required), so that I only see slots if there is really action required (and only to this slots I want to focus my attention...).

e) New-idea: I would like to create slots with additonal property "special stacked-Slots"), who works separetly for themself, without moving tables elsewhere (at least, not without special manuel commands), where the action-is-required table always popup (within tables of this slots). For exmaple, I can make 4 of this special slots, with 5 tables each and I then I can play this slots in a simular kind as zoom poker (for this, the action-is-required-function have to work separatly for each stack).

Advantage: I see always the 4 most urgent hands I have to act (and if I have mutch action I can chose which table I play first...for example if I make then 2 easy folds, then 2 new tables appear and overall I see in a very short time 6 urgent hands (and can so reduce the time-out-danger with a good hand...). The advantage to your existing system (if I just make 4 slots) is thats easier for your mind to categorize and to remember each table, if the table within this new special-stacked-slots dont move to other slots (and that I see more diffrent urgent hands in the same time, because on your existing system u only have one real action-is-required slot (on the other 3 u play a hand and u can watch it, but in the most time of it u have to wait until its your turn to act...and ok, u can use 9 ore more slots to see more real required-action, but then overall the screen is not so clear as if u only play 4 zoom tables...).

Sry for bad english

[DaZedMan]

d) I dont like to see the main-stacked-slot (need space and it cost some attention too...sometimes u see this table and holecards already with your half eye (and it starts already to go in your brain and be a part of your mind...), but u play 1-2 other slots first, because hand is more important or clearer to play (or timebank is shorter...), and then this table from the main-stacked-slot move to the new free slot. And this is confusing my mind a little bit.

This is an excellent idea. I was going to suggest having the stack *only* for stacked tables and *all* tables with action are moved to the grid. I keep the stack on a separate small monitor and would prefer to be able to focus my attention only on one 'action' screen.

[SaT_Admin]

Hi,

just tested the programm and want to give a short feedback.

Positive:
a) Very easy to use and very good instructions for new users and I like the user-interface too (very easy/comfortable to handle...)
b) I like, that it was possible to test it fast (without enter 1000 datas like realname, adress...and that its possible to write that easy in the forum too...)

Thank you

Future wishes:
c) I would like to have an optional function for, if I go allin (or if I make a pre-action fold), that the table move instandly back to the main-stacked-slot. Advantage: The slot is faster free again for a fresh table, the acutally showed tables is reduced and so the view is more clearly. If I see instead the showdown its difficult not to take a look to it and if I play many tables that costs attention, what I want to avoid (and if I play something like hypers (masstabling) and I saw the 10th time in a row a unlucky lose on the river, then there is a tilt-danger too^^).

For the pre-action fold checkbox, you could use a "Fold+Stack" hotkey to accomplish sending it back to the stack. This is what the majority of users do.

For going allin, you could try using the "Bet+Stack" hotkey or the "Call+Stack" hotkey. You might combine this with using one of the "BetSize" hotkeys to click the allin sizing button on the table, and then using the "+Stack" variant of the appropriate hotkey

d) I dont like to see the main-stacked-slot (need space and it cost some attention too...sometimes u see this table and holecards already with your half eye (and it starts already to go in your brain and be a part of your mind...), but u play 1-2 other slots first, because hand is more important or clearer to play (or timebank is shorter...), and then this table from the main-stacked-slot move to the new free slot. And this is confusing my mind a little bit.

I'm guessing you're using Move To Grid = Action Required

You can move the stack slot offscreen if you wish. Just use Visualize Grid and drag it partially offscreen. Then you won't see it. Some people have been doing this for a while.

I usually don't recommend it simply because if all of the grid slots are full, and another table in the stack requires action, then there will be no free slots for the table to move to. In this case, the table will just pop to the top of the stack so that you can take action on it.

Also, sometimes its handy to just scroll through the stack (using a "Send Table to Bottom" hotkey) and just check to make sure no tables are sitting out, etc, maybe the Old Tables feature missed a table or something.

Finally, if you use Move To Grid = After Entering Pot, then obviously you need to see the stack because all preflop actions occur in the stack.

If I see a table on a specific position and my mind starts (consciously or unconsciously) thinking about it, then I dont like to find (or search) the same table on a diffrent position later. So I would like to have an optional function "dont move a table which already exists longer then x seconds" and a function "hide main-stacked-slot if no action is required), so that I only see slots if there is really action required (and only to this slots I want to focus my attention...).

I'm not really sure what you mean by the "dont move a table which already exists longer then x seconds" feature.

e) New-idea: I would like to create slots with additonal property "special stacked-Slots"), who works separetly for themself, without moving tables elsewhere (at least, not without special manuel commands), where the action-is-required table always popup (within tables of this slots). For exmaple, I can make 4 of this special slots, with 5 tables each and I then I can play this slots in a simular kind as zoom poker (for this, the action-is-required-function have to work separatly for each stack).

Currently there is only 1 stack slot and the rest of the slots are for tiled grid slots.

It has been requested in the past to allow multiple stack slots, but I'm not sure if I will do it yet. I also don't know how I would even label it within the software, or how I would allow the user to configure it. This is important. Like you said, I don't want to make the software confusing for people with a million different options. I try to make each setting clear to the user and easy to set up. I don't know how I would offer the current way with one stack but also have a whole other way with multiple stack. What would the Layout window look like? What would the settings be named? Etc. If you have ideas about this I will take it into consideration.

Advantage: I see always the 4 most urgent hands I have to act (and if I have mutch action I can chose which table I play first...for example if I make then 2 easy folds, then 2 new tables appear and overall I see in a very short time 6 urgent hands (and can so reduce the time-out-danger with a good hand...). The advantage to your existing system (if I just make 4 slots) is thats easier for your mind to categorize and to remember each table, if the table within this new special-stacked-slots dont move to other slots (and that I see more diffrent urgent hands in the same time, because on your existing system u only have one real action-is-required slot (on the other 3 u play a hand and u can watch it, but in the most time of it u have to wait until its your turn to act...and ok, u can use 9 ore more slots to see more real required-action, but then overall the screen is not so clear as if u only play 4 zoom tables...).

An alternative is to use the "Fold+Stack", "Call+Stack", and "Bet+Stack" hotkeys which will send all of your tables back to the stack after every action. This will free up your grid slots so that you can play more tables without waiting for the action to come to you.

But like I said, your idea has been suggested in the past, but it requires a major change in how the software is currently designed.

Sry for bad english

Your English is very good

[SaT_Admin]

d) I dont like to see the main-stacked-slot (need space and it cost some attention too...sometimes u see this table and holecards already with your half eye (and it starts already to go in your brain and be a part of your mind...), but u play 1-2 other slots first, because hand is more important or clearer to play (or timebank is shorter...), and then this table from the main-stacked-slot move to the new free slot. And this is confusing my mind a little bit.

This is an excellent idea. I was going to suggest having the stack *only* for stacked tables and *all* tables with action are moved to the grid. I keep the stack on a separate small monitor and would prefer to be able to focus my attention only on one 'action' screen.

DaZedMan, what you suggest is already how the software works, when you have Move To Grid = Action Required.

The stack holds all of your tables, and each time a table requires action, it gets move out into the grid. Only when all the grid slots are full, will a table pop to the top of the stack for you to act on. Please see my response to NewTester above

[DaZedMan]

d) I dont like to see the main-stacked-slot (need space and it cost some attention too...sometimes u see this table and holecards already with your half eye (and it starts already to go in your brain and be a part of your mind...), but u play 1-2 other slots first, because hand is more important or clearer to play (or timebank is shorter...), and then this table from the main-stacked-slot move to the new free slot. And this is confusing my mind a little bit.

This is an excellent idea. I was going to suggest having the stack *only* for stacked tables and *all* tables with action are moved to the grid. I keep the stack on a separate small monitor and would prefer to be able to focus my attention only on one 'action' screen.

DaZedMan, what you suggest is already how the software works, when you have Move To Grid = Action Required.

The stack holds all of your tables, and each time a table requires action, it gets move out into the grid. Only when all the grid slots are full, will a table pop to the top of the stack for you to act on. Please see my response to NewTester above

Yes and no As you said it works fine until the grid is full, however if there are no slots free then it will stay in the stack and so the stack can't be ignored. I can see the reasons why it works like this and it is a good 'safety' feature but personally I would like action tables on one screen only.

Not so easy to describe what I'd like to happen if the grid fills but I'll try. My set up at the moment is a 2x2 grid on the main screen and the stack off on a separate small monitor. Assume all 4 grid positions are filled and another table needs action then it moves behind an existing grid. (mini-stack?) Then when I make an action on that table, the table underneath will come to the top, either automatically or by a hotkey. Maybe the border could change colour to indicate that more than one table in on that slot.

[SaT_Admin]

Not so easy to describe what I'd like to happen if the grid fills but I'll try. My set up at the moment is a 2x2 grid on the main screen and the stack off on a separate small monitor. Assume all 4 grid positions are filled and another table needs action then it moves behind an existing grid. (mini-stack?) Then when I make an action on that table, the table underneath will come to the top, either automatically or by a hotkey. Maybe the border could change colour to indicate that more than one table in on that slot.

Ah yes. You want the grid slots to actually act as stacks themselves. I suppose that is similar to NewTesters request

[NewTester]

For the pre-action fold checkbox, you could use a "Fold+Stack" hotkey to accomplish sending it back to the stack. This is what the majority of users do
For going allin, you could try using the "Bet+Stack" hotkey or the "Call+Stack" hotkey. You might combine this with using one of the "BetSize" hotkeys to click the allin sizing button on the table, and then using the "+Stack" variant of the appropriate hotkey".

Ok, the "Fold+Stack"-Function works very good. But for allin-shoves I have actually to use at least 2 clicks (one click for big sizing, next click for bet+stack). Here it would be fine to have one function "Shove+Stack". Especially if u play mutch hypers...after a third of the tournament u r very often in the push-or-fold mode...(and ok yes, if u only play cashgame, then its not so important, because u rarely shove...).

"I'm not really sure what you mean by the "dont move a table which already exists longer then x seconds" feature. "

Yes, I used a wrong name for it...better would be something like "dont move the actually shown top-table from main-stacked-slot, if there is direct action required (fold/bet-buttons are visible) and this table is already shown on screen longer then x seconds". I scan the whole screen to set priorities where I have to react first and then the tables and each position are saved in my brain and then I dont like it if the table moves away...better would be, if a slot become free, that the shown top-table who already required direct action dont move and the programm just check if there is a another table under the shown one who required action and if yes, then move this table to the new free slot).

Additional reason (to the other I mentioned in my first post). If all slots are already full, then I have obv. mutch action. And in this case, I have mutch to do and I dont want to spend time to watch what on the main-stacked-slot happens (especially not, if its not clearly, sometimes u have there a stack where direct-action is required and sometimes not...this costs attention and I dont want to share this attention if I have already less time...). But with the new function (from my first post...""hide main-stacked-slot if no action is required" then I know instandly, if on this place a table appears, its a table where action is required and so its more clearly (and additonal I have the advantage to your suggested solution (move stack slot offscreen), that I dont miss action, because the popup-Function in this stacked slot still works).


To my new-stacked-table-Idea:
Yes, I can understand your view. Its a bigger change and mutch work. But I think its no super big problem to find a good user-interface for that (for example something like thumbnail-view from all slot and then add a property-Field where the user can chose what kind of slot this should be (tilt oder stacked...). The bigger work is to develop something like the new action-is-required-function who works separately for each stack and other internal programm-things (which the user dont see...).

But overall I think, such a possiblity could be extrem powerfull for the user. For example the user can play diffrent tournament types with diffrent buyin or blind structure, or in cashgame diffrent limits and then just use a own stack for each (or they can use a stacked slot for special opponents (fish-tables) which are easy to play, and other stack for harder tables, or a slot for the early tournament phase (where u play very tight and fold mutch) and other slots for later phase and so on...).And as a next step, there are many possiblities for more upgrades too. For example it could also be interesting to read holecards and let the tables moves to stacked slot depending on the holecards (trash hands in a slot and Monsters in a other slot).

I think with such function you can push your programm strong and it could be the absolut market leader. But ok, that was just my ideas I wanted to share (as I said, I understand your view too and its mutch work to develop too...). So I dont expect that its next week developed^^. And on short-term view the other mentioned points (functions "shove+stack", "dont-move table" and "hide-main-slot" are more important for me (if u add this, I buy it...if not I have to develop my own programm (next year I try sne on stars and I need a very good tool for that...every mouseclick less is important and I want a clear screen too)...but I would prefer just to pay and save my time for this...).

[NewTester]

Additional point for a "shove+stack"-function.

It saves time in situation where your plan is to go always all-in (for example u r commitet and shove every flop...or u have monster preflop or/and your stack is so short that u have to push 100%). With such a function u dont have to wait until its your turn to act (the bet/fold-Button appears), u can just make the pre-action "shove" and save time.

[SaT_Admin]

Ok, the "Fold+Stack"-Function works very good. But for allin-shoves I have actually to use at least 2 clicks (one click for big sizing, next click for bet+stack). Here it would be fine to have one function "Shove+Stack". Especially if u play mutch hypers...after a third of the tournament u r very often in the push-or-fold mode...(and ok yes, if u only play cashgame, then its not so important, because u rarely shove...).

Many people have requested an "allin" hotkey. However, there is no easy way to do this. There is no "allin" button on the table for me to click. So the only way is to change the betbox. But there are two problems with this: 1. not all sites even allow me to 'see' the betbox when developing the program (which is the same problem I have with the increase/descrese bet hotkeys), and 2. even if I can put stuff into the betbox, not all sites work if you put in 999999 as the betsize. Some require the exact amount.

Lastly, combining the BetSize hotkey with a Bet+Stack hotkey doesn't exactly work either, because each person can configure their BetSize buttons differently within the poker client.

Of course, you can use a simple AHK script to combine them yourself, which I could help you with. For example, if your BetSize hotkey for allin is "F1" and then your "Bet+Stack" hotkey is "F2", and when you want to do a "Shove+Stack" you want to press "F9", then:

Code:

When pressing F9:
   Send "F1" keystroke
   Wait half a second
   Send "F2" keystroke
finish

This would have to be a custom script that you use outside of SaT which would call the SaT hotkeys

Yes, I used a wrong name for it...better would be something like "dont move the actually shown top-table from main-stacked-slot, if there is direct action required (fold/bet-buttons are visible) and this table is already shown on screen longer then x seconds". I scan the whole screen to set priorities where I have to react first and then the tables and each position are saved in my brain and then I dont like it if the table moves away...better would be, if a slot become free, that the shown top-table who already required direct action dont move and the programm just check if there is a another table under the shown one who required action and if yes, then move this table to the new free slot).

Additional reason (to the other I mentioned in my first post). If all slots are already full, then I have obv. mutch action. And in this case, I have mutch to do and I dont want to spend time to watch what on the main-stacked-slot happens (especially not, if its not clearly, sometimes u have there a stack where direct-action is required and sometimes not...this costs attention and I dont want to share this attention if I have already less time...). But with the new function (from my first post...""hide main-stacked-slot if no action is required" then I know instandly, if on this place a table appears, its a table where action is required and so its more clearly (and additonal I have the advantage to your suggested solution (move stack slot offscreen), that I dont miss action, because the popup-Function in this stacked slot still works).

Ok I understand these two now. I don't really like the first one for "don't move top table in stack after X seconds". I think many people have trained themselves not to look at the stack and this would actually require them to.

As for "hide stack slot if no action required", what do you mean by 'hide'? Keep all of the tables disappeared?

To my new-stacked-table-Idea:
Yes, I can understand your view. Its a bigger change and mutch work. But I think its no super big problem to find a good user-interface for that (for example something like thumbnail-view from all slot and then add a property-Field where the user can chose what kind of slot this should be (tilt oder stacked...).

Trust me developing the interface is a lot of work. The hardest part is making everything clear for the user. What would I name this new setting? Would it stay under "Stack And Tile" play mode? Would I have to remove the "Move to Grid" setting altogether? Because would these new slots even be called part of the "grid"?

This is the base of the program now:
http://www.stackandtile.com/sat/help/overview

It seems that the whole concept of the Stack and the Grid would be gone. But it would only be gone in this new mode. How do I communicate that to the user in the interface?

It sounds like you just want a bunch of slots where tables never move, they just pop to the top of their individual stack. But then DaZedMaN still wants a stack and grid. He says that if all gridslots are full, then the tables should still move out of the main stack, but then start stacking behind the other tables in the grid slots.

Yes, the internal work is difficult to add this stuff. But its just as hard to come up with clear and understandable settings for the users, so they know what the program does and how to choose it.

But overall I think, such a possiblity could be extrem powerfull for the user. For example the user can play diffrent tournament types with diffrent buyin or blind structure, or in cashgame diffrent limits and then just use a own stack for each (or they can use a stacked slot for special opponents (fish-tables) which are easy to play, and other stack for harder tables, or a slot for the early tournament phase (where u play very tight and fold mutch) and other slots for later phase and so on...).And as a next step, there are many possiblities for more upgrades too. For example it could also be interesting to read holecards and let the tables moves to stacked slot depending on the holecards (trash hands in a slot and Monsters in a other slot).

There are many possibilities, although I don't think holecards is one of them. Firstly, I don't think players would trust me or anyone to be reading their holecards. But more importantly, this would probably classify the software as a bot and be banned.

And on short-term view the other mentioned points (functions "shove+stack", "dont-move table" and "hide-main-slot" are more important for me (if u add this, I buy it...if not I have to develop my own programm (next year I try sne on stars and I need a very good tool for that...every mouseclick less is important and I want a clear screen too)...but I would prefer just to pay and save my time for this...).

I recommend you try some of the workarounds suggested. I have a tournament player who plays as much as 40 tables at a time with SaT. It can be done, but obviously I understand that you want it tailored perfectly for your setup. You are free to try to develop your own software, or pay someone to build something more specific for you. However, every time someone has told me that they are gonna do that, they always come back and end up disappointed, because it gets pretty expensive, and also there is A LOT of hassle going back and forth with the programmer as you try to explain your ideas. I've done custom work for people in the past and I don't think I will ever do it again. Even after being paid $1000+ for work, I'm still unsatisfied because I put in too much work and too much hassle. I'm not just saying this so that you buy my software. Another $20/month makes no difference to me. Just giving you a heads up.

[NewTester]

"Ok I understand these two now. I don't really like the first one for "don't move top table in stack after X seconds". I think many people have trained themselves not to look at the stack and this would actually require them to.

As for "hide stack slot if no action required", what do you mean by 'hide'? Keep all of the tables disappeared?"

Yes, with hide I mean disappear. And both function could be optional (User can activate it or not, if its not activated they can play like before...).

To my stacked-table-idea:
This idea is not for a total replace of your existing system. You have to see it as just a optional improvement-expansion. The Users can use it, or not and play like before.

I like this idea and I'm convinced it could be a very powerfull and good thing for users (and u can be the number one with this kind of "poker-screen-support"-software then...and additonal you prevent to lose customers because a other develop this first and then perhaps some of your customers leave u and join them^^). But ok, on the other side, perhaps I'm wrong and I'm realy the only one, who like this idea, lol, and yes, if am the only one, then it make no sense for u to work hard and develop this...

Anyway, I think about all, take a look to some other tools too and in december I decide what I use or if I develop my own tool (before poker, I was a professional software-developer in a big company...).